Boris Grebenshikov – Between Chaos and Harmony
Interview with Boris Grebenshikov for the magazine
Eva (Eve).
Vilnius, May 12, 2002
I have to admit, back in the Soviet times, I was neither into Boris Grebenshikov, nor his spiritual Rock Band Aquarium. Thus I have a huge gap in my education. I learned about Boris while traveling in the Himalayas, because it was there monks from Buryatia and Kalmykia were listening to him night and day and where Pilgrims from Moscow and St. Petersburg constantly cited his poetry. One time, in Katmandu, I saw Boris himself from a distance in flesh and blood. Maybe that’s why, for me, Boris Grebenshikov is associated with Asian culture. And that’s why, before striking up the conversation, I handed him, who was as if somewhat an esteemed spiritual guru, a hadak (a silky Tibetan shawl with mantras and lucky charms sewed inside of it). We even greeted each other in Tibetan: “Tashi Delek”. And at that very moment, when Boris enveloped himself into my gift and meticulously tucked in his shawl’s ends under his leather vest, I realized I missed a significant detail… whether he was wearing a T-shirt, which became a highlight of that concert tour - it said NOBODY KNOWS I AM A LESBIAN. Although I noticed he was wearing Buddhist beads – one necklace was on his neck, others – on his wrists. Fingers on both hands displayed a comprehensive collection of Asian rings. Even all of this did not diminish my fear… I heard Boris was very conceited with journalists.
- My colleagues warned me, you could
be very ironic with mass media, even sarcastic. You change even the most
serious questions into black humor. However, the hero of your ballads
is so sensitive and romantic…
- I am ironic... also romantic, and sensitive. Irony has only been helpful…
I believe, a sense of humor is the only appropriate way to communicate
with the world and yourself.
- I was also told that when doing an interview,
you could be really brief and want to end the tiresome process as soon
as possible. However, I hope to have with you a much longer conversation…
- We can talk while I drink my tea. You know, akin to some old Chinese
man, I drink lots of tea and it’s a long process. Sometimes, it takes
all day… Having said that Boris poured a steamy liquid out of a pastel
colored teapot into a cup. A miniature tea set did not look promising
at all.
- Your new album is called Sister Chaos. Why not
Sister Harmony… if it’s Chaos, then why not Brother (a question
of gender in the Russian grammar, the word ‘chaos’ is masculine)?
- I find it difficult myself to interpret the name of the album, whose
name came into existence entirely intuitively. However, I have a few ideas
regarding this subject. At the outset, I would like to say that chaos
is usually considered to be a negative thing, but I believe, chaos is
the primeval environment where all our reality comes from. If there were
merely harmony in this world, life would be fairly boring and trivial.
Now, why I named it sister but not brother, because men are not tumultuous.
Men can be unbearably boring and single-minded.
- One of the Aquarium’s albums is called Lilith
– who, according to Hebrew myth was Adam’s first wife; you
sing about the Mother Anarchy; there are Three Sisters, who tear a romantic
hero apart. Do you like witches?
- It’s simply a statement of facts. I do like quiet and gentle women,
although I’ve never met such women before.
Boris shrugs his shoulders, with a guilty smirk he tries to clarify:
- Well, I haven’t met harmonious women… it does not mean that I don’t
like tumultuous women. The more I think about it, the more I am convinced
that a matriarchal society would be the best for the world instead of
what we have today.
- What prevails in you – chaos or harmony?
Are you trying to become a harmonious person? What impact does sense of
harmony have on you?
- No, my goal is not just harmony. I am interested in the balance between
chaos and harmony. All the time I hold harmony with my hands, but my legs
are in deep ‘chaos’ or vice versa, - a sad smile appeared on Boris’ face,
and then he added dolefully: Well, you can draw some harmony out of music.
If you want, the world can offer you a plethora of harmonious things.
- The word harmony is mostly associated with Asia.
Are you a frequent guest in Nepal and India? What are you looking for
and do you find anything important there?
- I am looking for what I can’t find in the West. Something that is impossible
to find in the West, I think. I am interested in philosophical and religious
systems, which really can help a man to survive. The kind of systems that
offer clear-cut practices and methods, which can alter man’s personality
and his environment changing him/her into a more tolerant and open-minded
person. The western philosophy, alas, is mostly pointless banter; Christianity
is immersed in concrete dogmas through which it is virtually impossible
to get the essence of their belief. As far as Asian doctrines regarding
salvation and redemption, I’ve been reading books of Eastern philosophy
since adolescence. I went to Asia to investigate it myself, whether it
really existed. I was happy when I found out that all that thousand-year
old traditions have not been forgotten. And in Nepal and India you still
can meet gurus who can and want to help those who seek.
- When you educate your children, do you teach them
the Eastern philosophical views and religions?
- I do not educate my children in any way, and God forbid, I am not trying
to force them into any kind of religion. Every person must choose his
own creed… parents do not have the right to put pressure on their children
in this regard.
- Many go to India to visit with Sathya Sai Baba.
You were there as well, and quite a few times, I’d say. Such a saint
is not looked upon favorably among our intellectuals. Do you think material
things like Rolex watches and gem stone rings are the necessary warrant
that ascends you to a saint? By education, you are a mathematician…
do you believe in miracles? Would you be able to explain them?
- I don’t really care about others’ opinion regarding this or that phenomenon.
As far as me, my attitude towards Sai Baba is very positive. However,
not because he is able to take some gem stones out of nowhere and give
it to some pitiful soul, who starves for a thing like that. As a mathematician,
if you still seem to think of me like one, it can be explained very simply
and logically.
There is the energy conservation law. A lot of powerful energy is stored
within us and around us. We use only the minimum of that energy, and such
people like Sai Baba, are capable of using incomparably more energy. That’s
why I like being around Baba, whose presence cleanses me from the humdrum
grime. I think we have a good relationship. However, when I visited ashram
in Putaparty for the first time, my ego got hurt a little bit. Because
Sai Baba did not rush up to me, like to a long-expected guest. I was just
standing in the crowd while he, as if nothing had happened, passed me
by. As a normal person I secretly wanted to be singled out from the crowd.
Well, as it turned out, I was not different from others. At first, I was
upset, but then I realized that it was an excellent lesson for my pride.
Later I came across miracles regularly!
Boris got quiet, lit yet another cigarette and his face
had a mysterious but at the same time playful look.
- If it’s not a big secret, what miracles
have you witnessed?
- Sure, here is one. For example, when I was in London working on the
mix of the album Snow Lion, I felt like I was at an impasse and I realized,
I did not know what to do next. I left things as they were and went to
see Sai Baba, constantly asking in my mind questions that needed answers.
Again, I wasn’t among the lucky men, who were chosen by Baba for the private
conversation. It meant, apparently, even this time my problems were not
that big… others had much bigger problems. However, on the very first
night I saw a dream… Keith Richards from The Rolling Stones and I had
a long talk. I don’t remember my questions, but when I woke up I knew
all the answers. It was absolutely clear to me what I was supposed to
do next.
- While traveling in Asia I met a lot of people
from the West, who went crazy from what they had seen or lived through.
I felt it myself quite a few times – two more steps and sane mind
would crack up. Have ever had a concern that you might go crazy from spiritual
experiments or your mind is absolutely stable?
- I didn’t have anything that would drive me crazy. I cannot boast that
I have a stable mind. However, thank God, I am absolutely inert. That’s
what saves me from going crazy… I never saw or experienced anything that
could bring me to insanity. Miracles that made some people insane, for
me personally seem to be a normal thing in life.
- If you have such a stable mind then you, probably,
often feel happy. Do you?
- I am happy when I don’t feel the weight of my ego. The ego can disappear
during meditation, orgasm, writing poems, music and singing songs… Once
ego’s gone, the happiness comes. Buddha talked about it 2500 years ago.
- Except Buddha, are there any other
gurus that live today in this world? Are there such people who you would
listen to?
- If my Lama told me “Dear, you left so much trash behind ya”, I would
say to him with respect “Yes” and would start cleaning it straight away.
- Who is your Lama, if it’s not a secret?
- My Lama is a Tibetan who resides in Katmandu, in the monastery next
to stupa at Bodnath. His name is Choki Nima Rinpoche. This Guru is very
important to me. He sought me out among other students and told me: “I
believe there is a strong spiritual connection between us.” I was very
happy and very proud to hear that. As if we resemble each other in some
way, although from the first sight you wouldn’t notice that. We don’t
see each other very often, but each meeting means a lot to me.
- I met Choki Nima Rinpoche as well.
But when I went to see him I was accompanied by an oracle Lhamo, who when
she saw Rinpoche fell into a trance right away. She was possessed by some
deity, who sang in a lingering and resonant voice. So it was obvious that
no one paid attention to me. However, at parting Choki Nima told me some
more very pleasant things. All of the sudden, my ego grew tremendously.
Boris advertently looked at my wide spread arms trying to measure the
size of my ego and reassuringly said:
- Take it easy, if it expanded then it will get smaller. That’s ego’s
nature… Well, as for my other guru, you’ve already mentioned the name.
It is oracle Katmandu Lhamo. I have another good friend of mine – a woman-shaman
from Siberia. She is currently here in Lithuania. If she wags her finger
at me and says: “Hey, don’t do this”, I would obey her without hesitation.
There are people I trust. There are a few of them. The rest can give me
advice and mentor me as much as they want... I would tell everyone of
them the same thing: “I know what I am doing, better than anyone else.”
- You smoke constantly. Haven’t
any of your gurus ever told you that smoking is a really bad habit? Didn’t
the Tibetan lamas tell you that tobacco smoke plugs all subtile channels
of a body? And at the death hour your consciousness when it leaves the
body it can travel in the wrong direction.
- I was told and taught and made afraid. I know it all. I admit, I am
guilty as charged. Yes, smoking is the most disgusting habit ever that’s
killing me. I get closer and closer to the point where I can give it up
but it seems I’m at a stand still. The Tibetan lamas explained everything
to me, warned me and frightened me… I’m even doing special yoga to prevent
my body, as you say, from plugging up.
- In one of your spiritual songs you
talk about a yogi, who goes to the cemetery to practice chod, which is
supposed to help him to remove attachments to body and ego. What are the
attachments you would like to get completely rid of?
- I would like to remove absolutely all of my attachments. Speaking of
the practice of chod, even with its help, it is impossible to cut off
breathing, bleeding and love to art. All other attachments are easily
can be removed. If it’s possible, then it needs to be done.
- How many facades do you have?
- None. It’s simply a waste of time – first you have to create a facade
then to wear it and finally to take it off. You can do that if there is
nothing else to do. For me personally, I have much more interesting things
to do.
- What do dreams mean to you? Do you try to find
meaning of your dreams? Or maybe you practice yoga in dreams? May be you
can even control them or alter them?
- Dreams mean a lot to me. I am not able to control them although I have
tried to numerous times. After each try I got “hurt”, experienced very
unpleasant feelings. This puts a halt to my further experiments in this
realm. There are two things I try to stay away from: practicing yoga in
dreams and taro cards. Generally speaking, dreams not only can, but must
become a very important life instrument for each person. In dreams someone
or ourselves give us signals about what’s going wrong in our lives. We
should use these signals. I use them. If some dreams constantly and obtrusively
repeated, I begin to look around in my daily routines and search for what
is wrong. There are lots of things that can escape the consciousness.
However, dreams have this ability to grasp these invisible moments of
reality. I don’t see oracular dreams but I had some really unusual and
bright ones. Dreams that seriously have had impact on my unusual decisions
and actions.
- Are you interested in psychoanalysis?
- Psychoanalysis and sociology… I am just happy for the people who can
make a living out of it. Good luck to them.
- Are you an optimist or a pessimist? Talented people
usually suffer from depression. Have you ever experienced such feelings
and how do you overcome them?
- In my opinion both notions optimism and pessimism are artificial… they
are spun out of thin air. In the world I live in, in the reality I see,
there is no place for optimism or pessimism. As for moments of depression…
there are more of them than necessary.
All of the sudden, a strong advocate of Aquarium in Lithuania, Mark Shlyamovich, joins in the conversation and begins to explain to me about how fairly unproblematic Boris’ tough times are. But the “chieftain” tries fervently to defend his pain like a lion:
- My depressions are the biggest, the most painful, and
the highest quality! Depression comes almost after each concert, even
if it was a very successful one. I use simple remedies – sometimes 15
minutes of yoga or meditation, sometimes wine or something else….
- How do you spend your spare time, if you have
it, taking into account your busy schedule? What holidays do you celebrate?
- I love cutting grass with a scythe. That’s when so many great ideas
come to mind. I celebrate the same holidays like all people do. Last New
Year’s Day I even celebrated three times. My old friends from Eurythmics
– Dave Stewart and Annie Lennox, invited us to celebrate New Year’s Day
in Jamaica. So on New Year’s Eve Annie Lennox and I recorded one old Jamaican
song in the studio. Then that night I went swimming in the waterfall in
the woods as my wife stood nearby and held a candle to give me light and
protect me from vanishing in the pitch black. Finally Dave rented a big
beach and we had an excellent party. I always try to celebrate Tibetan
New Year’s Day as well, which is celebrated according to the Lunar calendar.
The Lunar phases affect me very deeply. I always try not to forget them.
For example, for creative work, five days prior to full moon and several
days after it are the most prolific.
- You’ve just dined at a vegetarian restaurant.
However, I’ve heard you love meat very much. You’ve probably
noticed Buddhists are often asked a question, how they can eat their own
brothers and sisters – bulls and pigs?
- Buddhism does not forbid eating meat. You are simply not allowed to
butcher live creatures yourself for lunch or dinner. Some people consider
this answer as a poor excuse. Oh well, what can you do if they don’t get
the point?
- All over your pants there is one
word – Fuck, Fuck, Fuck and so on…If my memory serves me right,
they were mentioned in all the newspapers of Russia. What does this mean
– a western Tantra shout of some sort, your favorite curse word
or…
- For me this word does not mean anything. I just liked the pants, that’s
why I bought them. However, everybody persistently wonders about them,
writes about them and talks about them, so I will probably stick to them
for a while.
- Do you have a personal designer,
like a star should?
- Personal designer would hang himself after the first hour of our conversation.
No one, could ever make me wear clothes that I personally don’t like.
Maybe people find my apparel tasteless, but the important thing is that
I feel terrific wearing it.
- Judging from your clothes I can tell where you
have been: the pants are from the US, your T-shirt – is most likely
from Jamaica, your jewelry – from Nepal and India…. In which
country do you feel best? Maybe in the motherland – Russia, where
you’ve become some sort of guru?
- Almost everywhere, wherever I go I feel great. Even in Russia. Especially
when I am needed... I know that in many places Aquarium is anticipated,
people are interested in the band, they listen to us, some people even
learn from us. I do not consider myself a guru, because a lot of responsibility
comes with it, which I lack. My main medium is music. Maybe I am some
kind of a semi-conductor for ideas. I did not become a guru, but remain
myself, who I am. I collect all the positives and no negatives. This is
a very winning situation.
- You are always followed by crowds of fans, but
do you have real friends?
- Friends no, not at all. However, there are a plethora of acquaintances,
- quickly replied Boris. But when he saw the shocked look on my face,
due to his cynicism, he snorted and added, “Well, of course there are
close ones too.”
- Do you enjoy being alone?
- I always feel like I have a deficit of solitude. I would love to be
alone more often than my circumstances allow me. I dream of having some
sort of cave in the Himalayas, where I can appease my need for solitude.
But I know for sure, once I had been in that cave, after two hours of
sitting in a perfect lotus pose, I would start composing a song that I
would like to record. My fingers would start to itch – to play something.
And the solitude I had dreamt about would cease.
- What’s your opinion on family? Do you think it is a necessary social unit or anachronism, which is unnecessary in nowadays life?
Boris keeps silence for couple of minutes and worried people from his entourage begin to use signals, trying to show that the time for the interview is up.
- Maybe you don’t want to answer
this question?
- I do.
Boris emptied the teapot, lit another cigarette and very quietly said:
- I don’t see family as a unit whose purpose is that of
continuing the human race, but as being close with a person, with whom
you can explore the world, as you would not be able to do alone. In the
family you are no longer alone, there are two of you. And such a unity,
should be treated as a great gift. Your other half must be your absolute
soul mate and supporter in all realms of life. This is a person you can
die with together and continue your being with him/her even after death.
- Are you afraid of death? Maybe you have some special
way of preparing for it following Tibetan teachings?
- To be afraid of death, I think, is awkward—even disrespectful. Why be
afraid of it? My preparation for it is – while I am alive, I try to do
as much as I can. Why am I here in this world with healthy hands, legs
and head? You think for no reason, just to waste time? So I work hard.
Of course I’ve heard a lot of wise Tibetan teachings about how you are
supposed to die properly. How you are supposed to behave prior to your
death and after when you become a new incarnation, during the period,
which is called as one of our albums “Bardo”. I don’t think I can meditate
up to such level when I can easily and gracefully leave just saying a
holy word “Phat.”
This syllable Boris exhaled like the last sigh.
- Well, who knows maybe I’ll be lucky.
- To wrap it up, let’s talk about love. There
has been so much written, performed, sung about love in the all corners
of the world for centuries…
- I am not going to repeat all that has been said about love, I just would
like to express my opinion.
Boris once again makes a significant pause and finally whispers as telling a great secret.
- When you love a person you want to give him/her everything of what you have best. However, this process should be mutual and only then it can be called love. It doesn’t even matter how long love lasts – all life, a year, couple hours or several minutes. This feeling can come up everywhere – in Japan, Jamaica or in St. Pete or… love can always be distinguished. And if the lovers are always together, it’s just wonderful. I would wish for everyone to experience this.
(c) Interviewer Yurga Ivanauskaite
Translated into English by Igor Yuzhakov, 2003
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